First Date DC

“In an ideal [ . . . ] world, a man would assume a woman?s answer is ?no? unless he explicitly hears otherwise.”

Ya know, I used to have that approach when I was in high school. I would ask explicit permission before kissing a girl. I was raised to be painfully respectful. As you can imagine, every time I pulled that number, I got a sort-of condescending look, a look that said “if you need to ask then you probably shouldn’t.” A sexual encounter is a give and take. If she’s laying there, kissing him, and bucking into his hands while he’s finger-banging her, does that mean no?

“I really must go . . . ”
“Baby it’s cold outside.“

Quite possibly the most absurd thing I’ve ever read. EVER.

“3. Resistance is normal. Any guy knows that girls put up some resistance before sex. It?s up to him to tear that resistance while not going against her wishes. But in this case, she offers none.”

i think the most absurd thing i ever read (EVER) was this post i read on some blog where a bum jingled his cup of change at some girl, and then she gave him fifty cents and said that she was robbed.

Wow. Just brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

I read the entire post. I read both of your comments. Although, I think some of DCB’s comments were a bit off (#2 & #4). I don’t disagree with his overall statement. I think Kathryn was more on target. This is a very gray area. As someone who has been sexually assaulted twice, I am very empathetic to rap victims. However, I don’t know if this girl was raped or not. Yes, the buy was a completete asshole! He knew she was terribly intoxicated and since she was drunk, he should have asked her. That may sound lame, but if he was a decent guy he would have either not tried to have sex with a drunk girl or at least asked her if she wanted to have sex (she was drunk but not incoherent).
No matter the guy’s size or her lack of self-confidence, most women would have resisted more. She just lied there and had dialogue in her head. She knew what was going on. She could have stopped it or at least put up a struggle if she did not want to have sex.
Contrary to popular belief, women can get wet and even orgasm while being raped. It’s a physical reaction…not mental or emotional.
Was this girl raped? I honestly have no idea. DCB was nailed it on the head when he said, “…If you are a girl who can not stand up for yourself, then you should not be going on dates with strange men and drinking, because you will definitely encounter situations where you need to let him know who?s in control.”

This was very much intended to be a point of discussion… as to a moral dilemna that almost all girls I know have encountered and yet no one has ever written about… and it is a large part of the casual dating world that we live in.

It’s a product of guys watching shows like Sex and the City and assuming that women are now looking at sex in the same way that men have forever. I know many women are now struggling with what they want, because most of us are not looking for one night stands. We still view sex as intimacy and the closest way to be with someone you care about. Women wanting one night stands are still very few and far between. In fact, the majority of my friends who still have sex the first time they hook up with a guy are still viewing sex as the way to appease a man and feel good about themselves. For a guy, there may not be a difference between having an orgasm with a hot stranger and having an orgasm with someone they love. However, for a girl, making love still exists.

So this post was a synopsis of what’s become of our society. This is what most men don’t get… DCB… this is not about whether or not she said no or yes. This is about why the situation even occured.

Wow, DCB, I knew you were a fucktard for a while, but a lot of your stuff was entertaining enough to keep reading, but this sort of, what’s the phrase? Oh, yeah, “crosses the line of the pathetic and disgusting.”

“Resistance is normal. Any guy knows that girls put up some resistance before sex. It?s up to him to tear that resistance while not going against her wishes. But in this case, she offers none.”

Maybe for you, DCB. Personally, I tend to have sex with girls who want to have sex with me, not with girls who need to be coerced into it, or, judging from the way you phrased that, who need to be badgered or nagged into sex. How manly of you. But, last I heard, when you have sex with someone who has indicated, verbally or otherwise, that they don’t want to have sex with you, that’s called “rape”. All in a day’s work for DC’s hottest bachelor!

Hmmm. This reminds me of when I used to work for my university’s judicial affairs office (so I handled the disciplinary/criminal issues that either happened on campus or involved university students). A lot of rape allegations came our way, and when I asked my boss for advice on how to flesh out the real deal from the bullshit, she said one of the wisest things I’ve ever heard:

“There’s a big difference between rape and regrettable sex.”

Truer words have never been spoken. While I don’t necessarily agree with the way DCB has characterized the encounter (at least, not 100%–some of his observations are quite astute), I do acknowledge that society has gone from sexual “grey area” to a presumption–nay, almost a reflex–of sexual assault.

I am extremely sympathetic toward victims of sex crimes. My only point is that we all need to take responsibility for our actions (and our non-actions). Do NOT equate sex that you were only “half interest[ed]” in with rape. If you were forced to have intercourse when you did not want to, you should go to the police. If you’re worried about “be[ing] a bitch” and concerned with doing what is “easier,” you need to re-evaluate your drinking and dating habits. Women are independent and strong in the boardroom–it’s about time we caught up in the bedroom.

I am profoundly offended by your answer, DCB.
The girl is not at fault here at all, whether it’s rape or regretable sex. No matter what label you put on it, SHE did nothing wrong. There are no ’should have done’s’ in this situation, there was no ‘right way for her to handle it’.
The man was WRONG - dead wrong - in persuing sex with a partner who was not completely into the act.
You need to get the idea that it’s ‘normal to resist’ out of your head now. There’s a huge difference between, “hehe! noooo, stop it silly! I just CAN’T! tee-hee!” and “no, really, this isn’t a good idea, please stop, I’m not cool with this.”
What I read up there was not a “tee-hee, please stop!” story, but the latter. The man might not be a rapist, but he is an opportunist, and it is men like you and the one above who CREATE those blurred lines between ‘regretable sex’ and ‘rape’. Let me also say that this goes for men who have been put in the same situation with agressive women - it’s just unfortunately more often the man who is the perpetrator.
Bottom line: regretable sex is still the fault of the person who took advantage of the other party, and while it may not be rape, it is CERTAINLY not the fault of the person who was taken advantage of. Nothing about that situation can be blamed on HER, not even the fact that she did not clearly violently, physically or verbally resist. That is not something that she should have to do in the first place.
Women SHOULD be strong. And wouldn’t it be nice if we could all be strong women and fight back? Unfortunately, due to the psychology of crime and the nature of sex and rape, women (and men) don’t always fight back, and that doesn’t make a woman (or man) weak by any stretch of the imagination. It makes them human.

Auxiliary only has one l, babe. I won’t get into the rest of your spelling mistakes.

“Nothing about that situation can be blamed on HER, not even the fact that she did not clearly violently, physically or verbally resist.” The [fictional] character in the [contrived] post was verbally - - what word did she use? ah yes - - “encouraging.” Physically, she was “caught up in the moment.”

AB: “The man was WRONG - dead wrong - in persuing sex with a partner who was not completely into the act.”

Obviously you have not have sex with a woman. Some of them have adopted the dead fish style of lovemaking, where they allow you to do whatever you want without moving or making noises. I guess I’m wrong then by having sex with those girls huh? So now not only do i have to be able to identifify the good no’s from the bad no’s, but i have to see if she’s “completely” into it.

Your black and white view of sex is laughable. I feel sorry for the guy who you will accuse of rape, just to relieve the guilt of having sex - AGAIN - on the first date.

I love the guys who have to make up bullshit excuses for a) why their date isn’t moving during sex or b) why they’re being accused of rape when really the girl just feels “guilty”.

And by “love” I mean “am sickened by and feel contempt for”.

The “rapist” in this story is clearly ignorant.

While it bothers me to no end that the girl never took a stand for herself and said “no”, the guy has never had any education on sexual conduct. This girl was putting off some vibes that she was not interested in sex with him, which he didn’t pick up on. If there are signs like that it’s time to abort! He made the bed for himself by going ahead and having sex with her. Luckily, I was taught in my early college years that that situation is likely to end up being considered “non-consentual” sex.

Both people were very wrong in this situation, so let’s not place the blame all on one of them.

The girl is not at fault here at all, whether it?s rape or regretable sex. No matter what label you put on it, SHE did nothing wrong.

Of course, she’s not responsible for anything in this scenario, huh? Not responsible for not saying no, not responsible for not standing up for herself, not responsible for being passive. She has no responsibility for her actions, it’s all the guy’s fault. Eeesh.

How could she be responsible for what she did? She didn?t actually DID ANYTHING. They were both wrong, but at least, he has an excuse: she didn?t say a plain no.

Let me preface my comment by saying that clearly the responsible man would just stop if he got any sort of vibe that the girl was not into having sex. That being said, I believe that equating regretable sex with real violent rape is a huge insult to women who are actually victims of that crime.

One thing I find disturbing is the number of female commenters who claim that if the woman was not strong enough to say no, that isn’t a problem- it is still rape. I am afraid this just is not valid. Legally, rape is sexual penatration against the will of the victim. In this scenario then, the important element that we are concerned with is whether the victim clearly communicated her will to her “attacker”. In my opinion, the girl on the couch casually moving the guy’s hand away or making a funny face when the guy unbottons her pants (but still lets him without clear objection) is not and cannot be equated to the woman violently held down against her will and violated while kicking and screaming.

Unfortunately I feel that some women are threatened by this distinction for whatever reason– probably because they have been in very intimidating situations before. However, the statement that, “she did nothing wrong” is both incorrect and disinegenious. I think the point should be made quite clear– you ARE doing something wrong if you engage in sexual intercourse without clear objection if it clearly is “against your will,” otherwise, the intercourse was NOT against your will and no crime has occurred. The reality is that the intent element of this crime for a woman has to have been formed at the time of the sexual act or immediately prior to it– it is not equitable for society to allow force a man to risk crime based upon what is essentially mind reading and allow a woman to chose at a later time what she considers her intent to have been.

While situaions are rarely black and white, the reality is- no objection, no rape.

Generally, in our culture and society, the presumption is that the actor is, you know, responsible for his actions. And, generally, while it’s nice if someone says “no” when they don’t want you to be doing something to them, nobody should ever be responsible for what someone else is doing to them.

Let’s say you’re a guy out with a buddy, another guy. And this guy suddenly, while your back is turned, reaches down the back of your pants and shoves his finger up your ass. Whoa there! You never said to him “if my back is turned, please down shove any fingers up my ass.” Too bad for you, sucker, for not being mature enough to know that at any moment, other people have the right to do whatever they want to you unless you make explicit every possible thing you don’t want them to do to you, ever.

They were making out on the couch. At no stage did she clearly indicate that she wasn’t interested - - quite the contrary. This guy didn’t walk up to her and just shove his dick inside of her, which is what you seem to imply happened in your comment. Ever tried to get someone’s pants off without their assistance? I’d imagine that would be a hell of a feat. There is generally some back-arching and hip-wriggling involved.

I just can’t believe people think that this scenario constitutes anything near rape.

First of all whatever- the scenario you describe is not parallel to that outlined in the emailer’s story. If a guy did that to me, I would immediately yell at him to stop- you can be sure of that, and I would probably punch him.

A better comparison, to borrow your buddy-with-finger-in-ass idea, is if after my buddy stuck the finger in my ass I stood there, bent over and stuck my butt towards him and said nothing while he conintued to do it again and again THEN later said that it was against my will.

Also– Whatever you state, “Too bad for you, sucker, for not being mature enough to know that at any moment, other people have the right to do whatever they want to you unless you make explicit every possible thing you don?t want them to do to you, ever.”

The thing is that unlike murder for example, a requisite element of rape is that it is against the will of the alleged victim at the TIME OF THE ACT. Without that element you only have consensual sex– which is not illegal– combined with regret. Don’t try to generalize about “all of society” or any other act– we are talking specifically about rape and the elements specific to that crime. In murder for example, the thought processes and intent of the victim are completely IRRELEVANT, but that is not the case with rape. In rape the consent of the victim is essential to establishing a crime.

You’re right - it’s the consent that matters. This hypothetical girl said that she “half-resisted” or something. That, right there, should constitute an absence of consent.

But let’s set that aside, and focus on DCB: “Resistance is normal. Any guy knows that girls put up some resistance before sex. It?s up to him to tear that resistance while not going against her wishes.”

DCB would like to justify having sex with girls who did not want to have sex with him by claiming that it is “normal” - that is, he is attempting to create a standard by which rape cannot exist, since resistance is normal during consensual sex. If resistance does not indicate a lack of consent, then what does? If there’s no way of indicating a lack of consent, how can rape exist?

Furthermore: “She put herself in a situation she is not mature enough to handle…If you are a girl who can not stand up for yourself, then you should not be going on dates with strange men and drinking, because you will definitely encounter situations where you need to let him know who?s in control.”

Sometimes people do stupid things. Sometimes they get drunk with the wrong person, or take a stroll down the wrong ally. They can be castigated for being stupid. They cannot be held responsible for what happened to them if they are hurt as a result of this - that burden lies with the person who commits the actual act upon them. DCB would like us to believe that it’s the girl’s fault because she hung out with this guy, he put his penis in her, and she should have known he was going to put his penis in her and should never have put herself in that situation.

In a world like that, anyone could do anything to anyone, unless they explicitly expressed, before hand, that they did not want that happening to them. Hence the buddy’s-finger-in-your-ass situation. Sorry, our society doesn’t work that way, and neither does our legal system, and neither should they.

“he is attempting to create a standard by which rape cannot exist, since resistance is normal during consensual sex.”

Absolutely absurd. Rape exists, but as AUA describes, when a girl helps you take off her pants and underwear, she’s giving you a strong signal to keep going.

you make some good points whatever; however, I would ask you to consider things from the other side. As Kathryn points out- we don’t know all that much about this situation, namely, was the guy just as drunk as the girl. If he was then I think you start to lose ground on your argument that the impetus is upon the person who, “commits the act upon them.”

I think many of us are impassioned about this becuase we have been in similar situations ourselves- for many of the girls here it’s that they were too drunk and hooking up with a a creepy guy who was hard to stop or discourage. For guys, there have been times when both parties were drunk and things got physical, only for the girl to come to her sense the next morning and realize that she doesn’t like the guy, she has a boyfriend, or she just shouldn’t have done that. As Kathryn points out- it is a gray area. I think essentially that DCB agrees, but he makes the point that to immediately jump to the conclusion of rape without carefully considering the circumstances is dangerous.

Rape is a very serious offense- on par with violent crimes like manslaughter and murder in our legal system. As our conversation reflects- there is a fine line to be walked though- unlike murder it is not ALWAYS as simple as figuring out whether the crime has occurred. From my personal experience, I have run into situations where you college girls have said that they were “rufied” at a party or by a guy only to rescind their accusation later when the police and the hospital demand a chemical test to go forward with the charge– I can’t say I know exactly what happened, but it seems like maybe sometimes young women do things they regret and then want to avoid responsibility somehow.

I think finally, the charge of “rape” is extremely serious. The reaction of DCB and AUA reflects the attitude of many men, myself included, that going out and calling a man a rapist is unbelievably serious– you are basically taking the chance you will ruin that man’s life and his career– so it is essential that the accusation is made in good faith and that it is actually truly a rape and not consensual sex with regret.

edit: young college girls- not you college girls

While rapists or any man who abuses women should be locked up; women who cry “rape” when the lines are blurry and she’s trying to avoid responsibility should ALSO be locked up.

i?igo and whatever are, in my mind, using a very narrow, legalistic definition of “responsibility.” You are responsible not just for your actions, but the situations you put yourself into. You also have some responsibility to stick up for yourself. (If you come across a crime occuring, then you have a moral responsibility to call the cops or intervene).

Whatever writes,

DCB would like to justify having sex with girls who did not want to have sex with him by claiming that it is ?normal? - that is, he is attempting to create a standard by which rape cannot exist, since resistance is normal during consensual sex. If resistance does not indicate a lack of consent, then what does? If there?s no way of indicating a lack of consent, how can rape exist?

New York State law says the victim has a responsibility to “clearly express” lack of consent, such that “a reasonable person in the actor`s situation would have understood such person`s words and acts as an expression of lack of consent to such act under all the circumstances.”

Obviously, if you overtake someone by surprise (as in your finger-in-the-ass example), or perform acts on someone who is asleep or unconscious, they have not given you implicit consent. That’s a scenario the law explicitly recognizes — you can’t just cop a feel from someone on the subway.

Derek, don’t touch my booty. I’m a dude.

Anyway, you are again missing the point. DCB says “Resistance is normal. Any guy knows that girls put up some resistance before sex. It?s up to him to tear that resistance while not going against her wishes.”

Seems she expressed her wishes when she “resisted”. DCB is either a) defining himself as a rapist, for having sex with a girl who “clearly expresses lack of consent, etc” or b) trying to establish a standard by which rape cannot exist since “clearly expressed lack of consent” doesn’t mean, according to him, lack of consent.

What I take this to mean is: DCB frequently has to pressure, cajole, intimidate, or (perhaps worst, in the eyes of all men who don’t need chicanery to sleep with women) nag women into having sex with him.

My, my, Derek Rose…

Mm, how shall I say? What a pathetic hypocrite. I’m so glad we had to opportunity to sort out your misgivings via email, only to find you back on your unfounded soap box. Residual passive aggressive feelings, perhaps? Due to the fact my snubbing your quaint (”You’re hot”) email and your creepy looks the other night?

Wow, such a gentleman.

Oh, and in case you forgot what you wrote:

“…But there have been times when, y’know, we’re drunk, fooling around — and she changes her mind over how far it is going to go. Which is fine, absolutely … but there have certainly been times when a girl has changed her mind, and, perhaps caught up in the moment, I haven’t realized it until she tells me. So I reading your post, I was sorta like … well, I don’t really like passive girls to begin with … but if i did, it might be, there but for the grace of god go thee… does that make any sense?

HI!!

I WROTE THE ORIGINAL POST ON MY BLOG.

Since everyone’s all up on their high horse over what I did and didn’t do in my farcical post, I’d love to clarify a few things:

1. the post was intentionally vague b/c the man with whom it was based on reads my blog. you can say what you want about standing up for myself, etc, etc, but I wanted to create dialogue about this topic, especially in light of a very recent and similar incident with a friend of mine.

2. it was coerced sex. I told him over and over and over that I was not interested in sleeping with him. I told him to stop. I told him I didn’t want to have sex. He wouldn’t stop. It wasn’t overly aggressive, it wasn’t violent, I wasn’t thrown down in the woods, I was in my apartment, having had too much to drink, and thought when he said he wanted to watch a movie, that he indeed wanted to watch a movie and not spend the next hour trying to “convince” me to sleep with him. Considering his size, his insistence, my state, the extremely late hour, etc, etc, etc, we did, eventually have sex. Which is why, no, I didn’t consider it rape in the traditional sense, but it was definitely unfair and coercive sex. An opportunist.

3. The fact that most of the comments which are so damned ardent about the law says this and the law says that, well, goddamned, if you’re consulting the law book before you fuck some half-drunk girl, do you ever stop to consider if she was sober, would she want to sleep with me?

Umm. Gosh, Angelina, you were the one who told me you “loved” me and asked me to email you! Baw-ha, you don’t love me anymore?

And sure, I stand by what I wrote. There are times when I haven’t realized that someone is pissed at me, or sad, or not as lustful as I think they are … until they tell me. Jeeez, I’m not a mind-reader…

And thanks for posting my private correspondence to you online though, perhaps I’ll do the same to you?

yeesh, angelina, you’re weird– did you make this up or not? did you tell him ’stop… i don’t want to have sex’ or not? I’ve lost track of the various intentionally vague enhancements you’ve made to this story. If you told him to stop and he didn’t, call the police. If you didn’t tell him to stop and he didn’t, be a bit more assertive next time. And you might want to try growing up, it works wonders for relationships.

Whatever, I think (hope?) that DCB was being unclear, and could have simply expressed himself better. I think he’s talking about token resistance — e.g., Rhett Butler carrying Scarlett O’Hara up that staircase in “Gone with the Wind.” “Resistance” with the intent to eventually say yes.

The fact that most of the comments which are so damned ardent about the law says this and the law says that, well, goddamned, if you?re consulting the law book before you fuck some half-drunk girl, do you ever stop to consider if she was sober, would she want to sleep with me?

Thanks for the lecture, but this is a pretty lame comment. I can get into a big discussion about hate speech, the legality of hate speech, First Amendment issues, etc., without any intention to engage in hate speech.

Angelina, if you wanted your post to be about morality, and not the law, then why did you explicitly compare this scenario to rape in your title? If you had chosen a subject line of “this is a real asshole” I don’t think anyone would have objected.

Derek, you’re just so oblivious, it borders on adorable.

Ah, sigh. “Lame comment”? Wow, you’re digging pretty deep in that substantial arsenal of yours, no? Deep down, you know who’s right, and I think it’s very sweet. Now, please don’t get in a huff the next time I publicly snub you.

best,

Angelina

um, okay. whatever.

Methinks thou doth protest too much, angelina. ‘Deep down you know who’s right”? Please, are you four or something? You sound under-age, or like the girl I went out with last year who disclosed on our third (and last) date that she’s on meds. What does your therapist say about all this, anyway? So sad…

I love the hate.

the reason why Angelina has varied so much on the details is that she’s combining two different experiences, both of which involve her and her blog-readers. one was a well-known blogger who “took advantage” of her, the other she claims was clear-cut non-consensual sex. It’s very sad if true, on a lot of different levels…

Derek needs to get a life. I guess one can’t expect much from someone with the personality and physical similarities of OJ Simpson with Downs Syndrome.

He’s been harassing me via email for over a week. Clearly he is still hungup about my rejecting his offer of a drinks date. Quite honestly, I’m surprised he would have thought he’d ever have a chance.

I spoke to him for 5 minutes at a party, and clearly, I have become the obsession of him and his “spies”. Can the next First Date DC be about how people go apeshit after being rejected, scouring the internet and posting information that was strictly confidential at my insistence and at his accession. And this asshole is a reporter for the New York Daily News?

Derek, someday, a woman won’t laugh in your face when you invite her out, I promise. I only hope that when you get that date, you’ll have learned from my cautionary tale, and perhaps I can save one more woman for being date raped by a loser like you.

It’s sad that his life is little more than a pathetic joke.

Sigh … obviously, folks, I deeply regret tossing off an email to Angelina inviting her out for drinks after meeting her briefly at some bar, because she is clearly deeply psychotic.

She accuses me of “harassing her over email” in her Feb. 11 comment, but we had actually agreed Feb. 8 — at my suggestion — to never email each other again. Frankly, that was a big relief, because trying to have any type of dialogue with her was so damn unpleasant. Read the insults from her last comment (she calls me a “OJ Simpson with Downs Syndrome”, a rapist, a “loser” and a “pathetic joke”) and you’ll get some idea what it was like.

Basically, she doesn’t have any sense of proportion, empathy or reason. When I tried to be concilatory, just for the sake of ending our email feud, it basically got thrown back in my face. She just kept escalating and escalating things. It was a very, very frustrating experience.

I’m not even quite sure why she even started insulting me like this in the first place. I thought were having a heated but civil discussion, until she joined in and started trying to publicly humiliate me. I guess she took umbrage with one of my comments here (maybe from 2/1?), but I still don’t understand why. She never explained herself, despite my requests.

There’s a line about wrestling with a pig … If Angelina ever starts something with you, I recommend walking away.

If a man proceeds to have sex with a woman and she does not explicitly say “no” or “stop now”, it is not rape. There is such a thing as personal responsibility, despite the fact that many people seem to be convinced otherwise or lack any notion of the concept (which is kinda scary, really). You can’t expect everyone– or anyone for that matter if you consider yourself a mature adult– besides you to be responsible for you, which is what is being asked of the guy in this unfortunate and ugly situation.

You can get bogged down in semantics or caught up in a “grey” area but the simple truth remains that if you are not able to take responsibility for yourself in a situation such as this, then you shouldn’t be getting yourself into situations like this. Just like you shouldn’t spend money you don’t have and max out your credit cards if you aren’t prepared to take responsibility for putting yourself into serious debt (unless you know someone with money who will bail you out, in which case you don’t need to be responsible for yourself– luck you).

Or take consensual sex, for example. Everyone knows that if a man and woman have sex, the woman can get pregnant (yeah, I know… duh). Which is to say if a couple is going to engage in consensual sex and want to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, they should take the necessary steps to do so (condoms, pills, etc.). However no birth control is 100% effective, 100% of the time. By engaging in the act of consensual sex, they are knowingly taking an inherent risk. What if she does get pregnant? Who’s responsible? Simple biology prevents them from passing that responsibility off to someone else (yeah, this example is a little different than the debt one). So if you are unprepared to deal with the potential prospect of an unwanted pregnancy (regardless of how you choose to deal with it; have the child and raise it, have the child and put it up for adoption, get an abortion, take the morning after pill, etc.), then you shouldn’t be having sex.

In the same way, if you don’t want to be faced with the potential prospect of having sex with a guy while drunk and regretting it later, but never telling him to stop, then you shouldn’t be getting drunk with a guy and letting him come over to your place and letting him get inside your pants and letting him have sex with you without saying “no” or “stop now”. Failure to do so implies you have accepted the inherent risks of getting drunk with a guy, letting him come over to your place, letting him get inside your pants, and letting him have sex with you. And one of those risks is that you might, more likely will, regret it and suffer emotionally as a result.

That said, this guy sounds like a total scumbag. I’m sure it was a horrible and traumatizing experience, but that doesn’t make it rape. Clearly, he took advantage of Angelina’s drinking. For all we know, he was equally drunk and judgement impaired and as a result incorrectly thought she was into the whole thing (which would make sense since she didn’t explicitly object to his actions). The fact remains that she allowed it to happen by not resisting, verbally or otherwise. However, he did not physically force himself on her over her objections (at least I didn’t get a sense of that from her original post). This is not to say I condone taking advantage of someone who has had a lot to drink. But drunk people get taken advantage of all the time (which is why casinos serve free booze to gamblers). If you don’t want to get taken advantage of while drinking, don’t put yourself in situations where it might happen or don’t drink. Quite obvious, really.

I honestly feel bad for Angelina as I’ve had a few people close to me go through much the same thing. It wasn’t until they analyzed their own behavior and took responsibility for their actions which contributed to the incident did they begin to feel better about it. How does that work? Because being a victim is an awful feeling but allowing yourself to be one feels just as bad, if not worse. In this case, Angelina allowed herself to be a victim of regrettable sex and she could have prevented it on numerouse occasions before it happened.

It’s up to you to take responsibility and empower yourself by not allowing yourself to be a victim. Because as much as we’d all like, no one is going to do it for you. Least of all some icky, horny, persistent drunk guy.

The scenario posted here is very vague and I think it’s interesting that despite the grayness of the scenario, most of the responses have been very black or white. Is it rape? Quite possibly. Was it consensual (though regrettable)? Also possible. What is not gray, however is my reaction to DCB’s comments about resistance:
“3. Resistance is normal. Any guy knows that girls put up some resistance before sex. It?s up to him to tear that resistance while not going against her wishes. But in this case, she offers none.”
This echoes his thoughts from a post on his blog about dating tips for men:
“3. Don?t give up so easily, especially in bed. Sure, no means no, until it turns into ?Fuck me harder? not even thirty minutes later. Girls are scared of appearing too easy, so indulge in their little game for the five minutes or so it takes for the inner-slut comes out.”
Men sometimes think (and are sometimes taught through different cues they receive) that when a woman says something like “let’s cool it down” or “I’m not into that” (or even the less ambiguous “no” or “stop”) in the bedroom that they should just keep pushing till she just gives in. Conversely, women sometimes think (and are sometimes taught through different cues they receive) that when they ask a guy to stop being physical he won’t listen to her and just keep pushing her physically towards a sexual act. In a situation like that, a woman may not feel comfortable asserting herself again verbally or may even feel like there is no point in doing so if the guy is going to keep trying to hook up with her anyway. I guess my question for DCB is, how do you know when you’ve crossed the line from awakening the “inner slut” of your date and just violating her boundaries of intimacy?

If a hot woman chooses to get drunk, she is fair game. Its her fault.