Today, fittingly, DCB’s own Sally fills his dating-advice-giving shoes…
Anonymous writes,
I’ve been friends with a woman for a while. She’s 27…I’m 29 - have known each other for three years. Basically, I asked her out on a date a couple of years ago and she kind of freaked. Clearly, not attracted to me at the time and instead of just saying that, went to the whole we’re friends, you shouldn’t be doing this routine - one of her college friends had introduced us shortly prior to my flub. Point taken. But, at the time, seemed like timing might be right on my side (had just broken up with a long-term girlfriend).
After an initial short period of awkwardness, in the meantime, I’ve actually developed an overwhelming genuine friendship with her. She’s the best. I’ve even set her up with great friends of mine that I thought she might like to date, given my understanding that she’s not into me. I’ve dated other women and even gotten back together with my ex for a short time. She’s confided in
me that she’s kind of sick of the same old boring DC guys and that she’s looking for someone who’s fun and spontaneous.
We get along so well, and sometimes I feel like things could really work out. I genuinely have strong feelings of friendship for her but also want to make out. Recently, I kind of feel like she might be interested (sometimes there is ambiguous touching). Generally, I think she expresses interest whenever I have some other game going on or show interest in someone she knows.
What’s the deal? I would really like to take another chance on her if I could figure out whether she’s just looking to keep the attention or whether she’s thinking her conservative ass shouldn’t be the one to make a move. Regardless of the fact that she shot me down!
Any clues I should be honing in on? Or should I just keep going out on dates with new girls (certainly not opposed)? If she’s worth another shot, how do you approach this?
DCB, your advice is gold. But, Kathryn, I’m more interested in your take on this one.
Sally says,
The reason this girl flipped out is because she wants the two of you to remain in the friends zone. She knew you wanted her, but she didn’t want to admit it to herself and she was hoping that you’d eventually just give up on the idea. She’s not romantically interested in you and no amount of time, “friendship” (isn’t your friendship predicated on a lie, since you will always be interested in more?), or persuasion is going to change that.
If anything is going to happen, it’ll be at her initiation. If you really want to push the issue, be prepared for her to freak again and for things to get incredibly awkward and she might even phase you out. I guess your pitch could go over well, but the odds aren’t on your side.
On the other hand, there’s a time-honored way to get your answer quick: take her out and get stone-cold drunk together, try to make out with her, and see how she reacts.
P.S. if she wanted you, you wouldn’t need any “clues” since it’s likely she knows you are still interested.
Kathryn says,
Incredibly, I may have an even more pessimistic view of this situation than Sally.
I think you’re her Emergency Dick. She loves knowing that you’ll always be around for her, wanting her (believe me, she’s aware of your desire to make out with her), and she craves that security. But she will probably never act on it, nor will she respond positively if you make a move.
The only clue you need is the one you noticed yourself - you only see interest from her when you are interested in someone else. She clearly doesn’t want you, but she doesn’t want anyone else to have you, either. I strongly believe she just wants the attention, and strongly encourage you to keep going out with other girls.
It may be that, someday, you and your Sally can get it together, Harry. But the only way that could ever happen is if you completely cut off the longing and affection, and focus on finding someone else without hoping that she comes to her senses and comes after you. I hope she does, and you guys are happy, but I hope more strongly that you find someone who really wants all the love and attention you can provide… and wants to reciprocate.
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It’s a woman thing. While you’re seeing someone there’s interested women everywhere. Not just the ones who know you and know you’re seeing someone, but random women you meet around town. But the moment you break up with your girlfriend all this interest evaporates. Before strange women would buy you drinks now they’ll throw them in your face. Women you’ve know for years and completely failed to get on with start giving you That Look and start touching you more once you’re seeing someone else and then stop the moment you’re single again.
The women who actually acknowledge this phenomena often say that while dating someone men are more confident and happy and that’s what attracts the women. Some say that while dating we put off some phermone that’s intended for our love interest but affects every woman in the area. And some say it’s similar to how toddlers always want to play with whatever the other toddler is playing with. If no other woman is playing with you they don’t want to either, but when one woman starts playing with you all the other women want to play with you as well.
So, what of Sally? I can’t rule out that something might happen someday, but the odds are very bad. Maybe after she’s been dumped and needs to feel wanted you go by with some ice cream and wine and see where the evening leads. Or does that only work in Penthouse forum?
get drinks with her one night, unexpectedly seduce her with charm and a quick wit (provided you have either), and if she’s interested, she’ll initiate something. a kiss outside the bar, in the cab/metro, or a seemingly innocent invite up to her place for coffee, etc. the trick is to make her unable to resist you…the question is, can you do that?
Comment by Casanova on 07/20/06.
No win situation. If you ask her out, she freaks out and you could damage your friendship forever, on the other hand if you don’t ask her out it’ll bother you forever and damage your relationships with other women. You should take some comfort in that you have tried once and while she may not have gotten the chance to know the real you, she made a judgement call based upon her stronger first instinct. If you really decide you should push the issue, be prepared to lose her as a friend, and if that will give you peace of mind go for it, but know what you’re risking before you go all in.
Comment by CVP on 07/20/06.
I think both K and Sally are right on, but I also wonder if in cases like this, it’s also her getting adjusted to the idea of dating you? That whole “I never knew I had these feeling for you” does happens. Part of it is the emergency dick (hilarious term) but also girls have ideas in their head about their type and who fits it. Maybe she just hasn’t let herself seriously consider it other than when you’re giving someone else attention.
I’d def try the drunk thing because what the hell, right. But you have to get out there and find some girls that know they want you. If she’s smart, she’ll wise up, and if not, hopefully at least you got to make out.
Speaking as a ‘Sally’ of sorts, I once got the sense that this guy from college–not exactly a proper friend but we have very good friends in common–was making a move. When we were in college I found him infuriating while most girls simply thought he was incredibly handsome. Which he was, I just found him to be a moody sourpuss. He was making a move a year after graduation when I happened to be in his city. At the time, I’d been wondering what it would be like to kiss him b/c ever since the first day of freshman yr, we’ve both been at the receiving end of people’s constant yammer that we’re so perfect together b/c of our tempestuous bickering.
However I chickened out b/c I knew I couldn’t be nonchalant the next day if we did hook-up. I knew I’d get mired in the “what does it all mean?” and wonder if this whole Harry-Sally fantasy would be on its way to fruition. So I didn’t get physical.
I do somewhat regret it and I’m secretly hoping that he will make a move again. Your ‘Sally’ may just be hoping that you’ll TRY HARDER. If you think she’s worth another shot, go for it! Life is short!
Most girls often don’t make a move, but they let it be known that they would like for YOU to make a move. Hang out with her over drinks. But don’t get drunk! It’s so easy for one or both parties to then write off hooking up as having happened solely due to inebriation as opposed to an undercurrent of feelings. If she starts touching you, be cool and say something like “You keep touching me. You really want me huh?” Say it in a sort of smart-ass/nonchalant/flirtatious way. See if she keeps touching you. Touch her lightly on the small of her back and see how she reacts. See what happens.
Good luck!!
Comment by Tatlerina on 07/20/06.
Oh this is a toughie bc at first glance I would agree with Kathryn and Sally. BUT then V makes an interesting point with people changing how they see someone. I would be careful with trying when you are wasted though. What if she does hook up with you just bc she is bombed and then regrets it and you both realize she wasn’t into it in the first place. Isn’t that more awkward? I would just rub her leg or do something a litte more than just “touchy” and if she bugs—STOP. She just wants to be your friend. Good luck!!
Player gets played. You are basically her validator. I’m sure that she values your friendship, but when she’s feeling down and out, you remind her that she is still desirable. Seeing you with other women threatens that relationship. It sucks, but I know tons of men that do the same thing. If I’ve decided that you are in my friends category, no amount of seducing or witticisms is going to change that.
Comment by holiday on 07/20/06.
You know, in the original ending of “When Harry Met Sally” the two of them didn’t get together. Why? Because that’s what usually happens in real life! I have to agree with Kathryn on this one - you are definitely her emergency dick, and the real crisis hasn’t set in yet.
The only people I’ve ever known, myself included, who were able to take a friendship of a few years and turn it into something more were people who had previously hooked up, broke it off for whatever reason, and remained friends while life carried on. At some point, they find themselves single and hook up again. Sometimes they get together on a more permanent basis, sometimes not. But you have to admit - if you’ve known someone for several years and have never made a move, it’s probably not going to happen. Whatever “it” is that starts a relationship, you two sound like you just don’t have it.
Comment by Mi on 07/20/06.
See: Cuddle Bitch. chicks wanna have their cake and eat it too. you, saah, are a cuddle bitch. recommend getting her good and drunk when she’s at a low point in her life. she’s made you her emotional packmule for the last 3 years. time for some payback.
