First Date DC

“but seriously, when should i call?”

July 15, 2006

Follow up: Marine Man

After reading this post, an anonymous commenter felt compelled to share the following with the original poster and everyone reading. Definitely an angle we didn’t consider, and something to ponder.

Take it away, Anon…

I love yas DCB and Kathryn, but there’s an angle you missed that could be dangerous. You are assuming this guy is being honest in his dealings, but he’s got a lot of red flags in his story that suggest otherwise.

To the writer: be careful girl, and FOLLOW YOUR GUT. Too good to be true? maybe it is You were at a wedding, but don’t say he was a friend of a friend or anything. Still, you must have friends in common–work that network and get information. What do you know about his family, where’s he from? You say he’s single–how do you know? You don’t know where he lives. You don’t have a home phone. You haven’t met his friends. He planned those dates completely, right? Outdoor activities…not at typical “date” times or places, like friday night in town, right? When does he call you, and where is he when he does? The car, on his way home, maybe? Late at night, standing outside? Does he say your name on the phone when you call him at work?

It feels too fast, too much, out of proportion; you say you’re in unfamiliar emotional territory after just three dates. Have you ever been in love? How does this compare to then? Is it more intense, more heady? wrt trusting your gut, here’s a useful trick to find out what it’s saying to you: what metaphors are you using? Do you find you’re “swept off your feet”? “on a ride”? “falling hard”? “out of control”?

When you met you told him he was too serious and dry for you and it turned you off. Then he dropped the serious and dry and turned out to be your dream guy, and suddenly you saw him in a different light, you say. What a coincidence that after you (implicitly) told him what you like in a man, that very night you find out that he actually IS that person, his previous self, which was trying to impress you with other methods, was just a facade. He’s good looking and has alpha-male balls (”tenacity and audacity” as you put it), that plus his background means he’s got all the skills and discipline he needs to pull this kind of manipulation off.

As you might have guessed, I have a bias. I once got played by a married man, and he started preCISEly this way. I had lots of serious-relationship experience–more even than him–but almost no dating/casual/sussing-out-new-people experience. Despite the massive infatuation it felt a bit off, like it does for you now, and I was looking for gut checks with family and friends all the time.
Eventually I followed the smelly parts of his story and found the truth; unfortunately by then we were far into it emotionally. (Oops.)

I can hear DCB writing my advice off as bitter from over here, so let me say I well know could be completely off base and reading my situation into yours. I really hope I am and your Marine is what he appears to be: just an eager guy with his light on. I’d be happy to be wrong about this. If I turn out to be please do let me know.

If this seems like me being too suspicious, well it’s not any one thing that made me wonder about your guy, it was the whole package. That said, the simplest red flag here is his use of the L word. A 35 year old guy should know better. Whether he said it as part of a play for you (in which case he’s too manipulative a person) or whether he said it because he thinks it’s true (in which case he’s emotionally immature and you shouldn’t go much farther) it’s a danger sign. Ask him why he said it/says it. I won’t go so far as to speak to his motivations in all this, I know my experience with the type doesn’t go that far. But I’ll tell you what my guy’s was, to give you an idea: escape from his life/wife/problems into a fun and simple fantasy life with me, projecting everything he didn’t have in his marriage onto me whether it was there or not. His actions were always odd in the “starting a new relationship” light, but they made perfect sense in this light. Have you seen “Match Point”? Yeah. It’s like that. For part of the movie, anyway, let’s hope.

(And none of this is even addressing the problems of being with career military officers especially when you are unfamiliar with the demands of the lifestyle, as it sounds like you are. As other commenters have said it is a very different set of considerations. WRT to the potential dishonesty, I’d recommend googling him or ganking his address off his ID and seeing if any other people are listed there, but the military stuff precludes that, unfortunately.)

I know this is long winded, sorry for that. But you can’t believe how horrible my situation was (I’m leaving out lots of gory details). I’ll take the cassandra role, and any of the ribbing and insults it may bring me, if I can make it help someone else, be it this writer or another reader.

July 14, 2006

DC blows

Jersey Girl writes,

So my roommate and I just moved here from DC from New Jersey. (Insert any and all Jersey jokes here please!) She works on K Street I work at National Airport. We have been here for about 3 weeks and have tried to hit up the scenes almost everyone night, happy hour crowds, weekends etc. We have done Georgetown, K Street, Adams Morgan and even Clarendon. WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH DC GUYS?! We are really really really clueless. Please explain them! Why do they all wear pastel polo’s? Translation, a polo is not a fashion statement! Why are they all WASP’s? Why do they all wear either a blackberry and cell phone or a blackberry and bluetooth AT THE BAR! They are NOT that important…and apparently they dont think it’s feisty and sexy when I tease them about that!

We have never had any trouble getting dates or drinks and I know we have been throwing the bar eye around like no one’s business. Do DC guys just not buy girls drinks? We are just so used to NYC and Jersey where the best convo starter is to offer a girl or a girl’s friend a shot and let the party begin. No balls in DC? No Gusto? No Confidence? Do they not like sexy tan brunette ethnic girls? Do they only like fellow WASPs? Does a girl need pearls and a lilly dress to get a drink? Cuz I dont think so! Where should we look? What do we need to do? To be honest I just want a drink and a little attention! Please help us!

DCB says,

Don’t you get it? DC sucks. My notch count would be double what it would be if I was in any other city but here. I think Kathryn may be more qualified to answer this since I don’t talk to men when I go out, but I noticed you are hitting all the mainstream spots. After you visit the top 100 nightlife places in DC, you will find that only 2 or 3 are bearable. Try the midtown area around Dupont Circle. Things are a little bit better there.

Kathryn says,

Welcome to DC. It’s not New York, but you can still find New York style locations, non-WASPy crowds, and minimal blackberry-to-dude ratios here and there.

Very New York (well, for DC anyway): Mate in Georgetown, Gazuza and 18th Street Lounge in Dupont Circle, Eleventh in Clarendon

Less WASPy (it’s all relative): Sesto Senso and Cafe Citron in Dupont Circle, salsa nights at Caribbean Breeze and Clarendon Grill in Arlington, Habana Village in Adams Morgan, Gua Rapo in Clarendon

Fewer Blackberries and Polos (most of the time): U Street area bars like Cuebar, Saint-Ex, and Chi Cha Lounge; Adams Morgan-area dives like Toledo Lounge, Pharmacy Bar, Wonderland, Townhouse Tavern (warning: these are going to be low-end and full o’ hipsters)

That’s a start, anyway. It sounds like you guys have neglected Dupont and U Street - give a few of those places another try. And something tells me our readers are going to have plenty of suggestions for a couple of “sexy tan brunette ethnic [Jersey] girls,” too…

July 13, 2006

Prep star

Melissa writes,

I have been dating a guy for about 2 1/2 months now. The problem is that I know he is moving to a different state in a month. He won’t tell me this and says he isn’t sure yet, but I know he is moving. Also, we come from very different backgrounds, I am a preppy, somewhat high maintenance, southern girl and he is a city boy and a true yankee. Politically we differ too. We really don’t have much in common but really like each other and have fun together. Is this going to last? Should I end it now? Also, there is the part of his ex and the thought that he might still be into her. How do I know if he might be still into her? Thank you.

DCB says,

It’s like the answer is right in front of your face but you don’t want to come to terms with it.

1. He is moving.

2. You are probably not his ideal type.

3. He is banging his ex on the side.

Short of you catching him sleeping with a girl, what other sign do you need to let you know that his interest in you is weak? I don’t think there is much you can do except to wait for when he dumps you.

Kathryn says,

Although I know from personal experience that a southern girl can date a Yankee, I also know that when you point out very mild differences as reasons things won’t work out, you’re probably looking for excuses. It kind of sounds like you’re done, too, you just really want him to admit the truth that he’s moving. If you already know for sure, why prolong the inevitable? Why not end things - which don’t sound all that great - and, when you hear he’s moved, congratulate yourself for getting out when you knew you should?

As for your other question, how to tell if a guy is still into his ex, I’d suggest looking for these signs:

1. He always takes her calls.
2. He refers to her for almost any reason.
3. When he speaks of her, his face lights up, or gets very sad, or both.
4. He sees her and doesn’t tell you about it.
5. If she needs him, she calls him, and he comes running.

Need I go on?

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July 12, 2006

So into me

Witty False Moniker writes,

What is your (DCB’s and Kathryn’s) take on the lopsided attraction thing? Also known as, accepting a date with someone who seems quite into you when you’re not sure you’re attracted?

Last week I was introduced to this guy at a friend’s engagement party. (My friend reiterates he was *not* trying to set us up.) Although everyone in attendance was all in their mid/late-20s, this dude and I were the only two there who weren’t married or engaged.

Due to his work/vacation schedules, he’d asked me to go to this show with him 4 weeks from now.

Obviously, a date would just be a few hours, and shouldn’t be a big deal. He seems like a nice guy, but I am getting the impression from him and my friend that he is way more into me than I am into him. My friend had indicated that this guy was kind of looking for exclusivity right away.

I have been off the market for over 3 years. Just broke off an engagement a few months ago and took a dating hiatus to just get my head/heart together. This would be my first date since. Had this guy knocked my socks off, maybe I’d be all about diving into something serious right off the bat with him. But, he didn’t and I’m not.

Marriage/commitment are in fact a priority for me… but I need to find the right person before I’m willing to commit. Which I am just not sure I can determine if someone is worth it after one conversation or one date. Have the rules changed that much since ‘03? I seem to remember a bunch of hardcore commitmentphobes just out there for casual sex. Is my position unreasonable? Or would I be leading this guy on to go on this date?

DCB says,

If you aren’t interested in him, why would you want to waste your time and his time? I can already see the date now: he’s going to say some awkward things that shows how desperate he is and you are going to come up with excuses to leave early. I know girls love going on “practice” dates, but there isn’t anything to gain from this guy. Unless he has big hands or a lot of money, you should pass.

Kathryn says,

Are you entirely sure this guy is that interested in dating you, exclusively, starting ASAP? A lot of times when people talk up their friends to a woman, they like to say he’s a good guy who’s looking for the right girl to settle down with, thinking that will make the guy sound perfect. That may be the case here.

However, he’s also giving you signals that he’s very interested, but you aren’t sure about the attraction. If you enjoyed his company, why not go on one date and see if any sparks fly? I wouldn’t suggest you waste your time or his, but if you have at least some positive feeling for him, it can’t hurt to explore the possibilities for a few hours.

If you’re then still unsure whether you want a second date or not, I recommend asking yourself The Question: do I want to see his penis? If the very thought grosses you out, politely decline further dates. If the idea intrigues you… date two is appropriate.

July 11, 2006

My first break-up

Anonymous writes,

At 29 I’m in the somewhat odd position of having to call it off with somebody for the first time in my life. I have had previous relationships that have been ended by other person, and plenty of casual hooking up situations that have simply fizzled out with no communication about the situation made by either me or the other person.

A couple of months ago I started dating two guys around the same time. Both were fun, casual situations. While one escalated to the point that we were regularly seeing one another and having sex; the other dropped out of communication. I suspected that he was seeing somebody else but that didn’t really bother me because I was too. The regular guy and I recently agreed to not date anyone else.

Today the second guy re-emerged and wants to get together. I’ve already decided that I don’t want to be with him, especially after he blew me off for several weeks (and I was probably his backup), and because I am committed to somebody else.

What I’m wondering however, is what the proper etiquette here is. Do I have to see him in purpose and explain to him that I don’t want to see him, or would an email be okay? I’m thinking back now to all of the horrendous lines I’ve heard in my life when somebody has been cutting me loose, but now that I’m in that position, nothing seems appropriate. I don’t want to sound like a jackass, nor do I want to place any assumptions on him. I know its somewhat lame I’m only encountering this issue now, but your advice is appreciated nonetheless.

DCB says,

So this guy dropped you and now you’re thinking of proper etiquette? You really don’t have to be so nice. Either stop answering his calls or send him an email saying that you have a boyfriend. Since you aren’t in a relationship, there is no need to treat this like a break-up you would do in person.

Kathryn says,

This is not your first break-up, doll. This is (I guess) your first blow-off. He disappeared for a few weeks, and you suspect you were on his back burner. You guys didn’t have a relationship. And if you did, he didn’t bother to actually “break up” with you. I say, respond with similar effort - either don’t answer at all, or tell him simply that you were dating someone else when you were hanging out with him, and have since decided to commit to this person. Neither would be lame or a line.

July 10, 2006

Taking it slow

Anon writes,

Ok. About 10 years ago I was sexually assaulted by someone I trusted. And his friend. But that is not what this question is about. After a decade of therapy, support group, a lot of hard work in short I feel ready to start dating again. But I know I am not going to feel ready to have sex right away or even after a few dates. It is going to take a while.

My problem is I don’t want to explain why I don’t want to have sex right away or probably even after a few months. I know I’ll want to eventually: I liked sex before this happened. It’s just a matter of trust for me.

So is there some other explanation I can give that you can think of that will keep him around until I am ready? I am not adverse to lying although that is probably not the best way to start a relationship. The truth however, at least in the beginning, is out of the question for me. Please answer soon because I am going out with this really nice guy this weekend who has asked me out a couple of times already but I always found excuses not to go. He’s about 9 years younger than me -I dont know if that would make a difference in your answers so I thought I would throw that out there.

I really like your site by the way. Although sometimes it depresses me, mainly because everyone seems to have more of a life than I do.

Kathryn says,

First, congratulations on your progress. I admire your strength and perseverance.

As for when to tell a guy about your history, I would wait quite a while. Men are okay with you saying you aren’t ready, or aren’t comfortable, or aren’t sure you want to without any sort of further explanation, at least for the first few attempts. Assuming it’s true, feel free to tell them how much you would like to do more, but be firm in saying you just aren’t there yet. No decent guy would pressure you overly or try and force anything. If they do, move on to the next.

Best wishes in your recovery and good luck finding the right guy.

DCB says,

Under no circumstance should you tell your date about your sexual history. Guys get freaked out by the smallest thing and this will scare them faster than if you told them you used to be a man. Many girls who go slow like to use excuses such as “trust” so I would go with that, especially since it really isn’t a lie.

If a girl told me she was raped, I would see her more as a victim than an equal. I’d rather not know.

July 7, 2006

Men are pussies

Frustrated writes,

Here is the source of my frustration:

I have had a few serious relationships over the course of my brief 24 years. They were all intense and passionate, but not good timing for those guys–and things ended, I was hurt, but I worked on myself and moved on eventually without taking baggage into the next relationship.

This last one, though, really got me wondering: what am I doing wrong? When a guy puts alcohol and myriad other obligations ahead of you–you should think that HE had the problem, but I’m not sure. He was solid at the beginning, then got busy, some things happened, and then he bailed and I have not contacted him since then although he said I could. Perhaps I’m miffed about him putting so many things ahead of a relationship after putting my ex down for not paying enough attention to me / holding on only for sex…maybe I still care about him despite the outcome…or maybe I just want some real companionship.

The same thing keeps happening and it pisses me off.

I am fit, witty, sarcastic, can hold my own with the guys, and I don’t really have a problem getting guys to ask me out. However, I don’t want anything to do with the majority (90%) of these guys. Truth be told, most of my guy friends would hook up with me. I did friends with benefits twice, but it’s not fulfilling to me overall and I’m looking for something more.

Maybe I don’t give out the right vibes to guys my age. Mostly older guys approach me. Perhaps they see me as a challenge, I don’t know. Some of my guy friends have called me “intimidating” in that I’m well-spoken, independent, determined, and “smart.” Maybe my interests are atypical and that turns some guys off (military history). I definitely don’t dress like a tomboy. I’m always complimented on what I wear as “sexy, but with class.”

I’m tired of guys saying that I’m such a “breath of fresh air” after the stuffy Southern belles or demanding rich girls they’ve dated–yet these same guys turn around and drop me when a major life change comes up because “they’re just not ready for commitment” or take on so many things that they don’t have time for a relationship (one was used to having a long-distance gf, and then reality hit him that I’m here and he can’t booze it up with his buddies all the time).

I suppose I should do better recon before I get involved with a guy and drop him as soon as I know we don’t want the same thing, but how can I step out and regain my confidence and attract guys in my age bracket that are half-way decent? Do I have to “dumb” myself down?

DCB says,

Slow down speedracer. It sounds like you are rushing into relationships and scaring these guys away. Besides, the current pump and dump rate in the District for someone your age is around 80%. That means that you will get dumped regardless of how awesome you think you are, simply because guys just want easy sex. The other 20% are guys who have picked up on your character flaws. Maybe if you weren’t so arrogant, more guys would stick around. Have you ever thought of that?

PS. I would never date a girl like you.

Kathryn says,

Maybe you should try dating some of these older guys who approach you? Not lots older, just maybe 26-28 instead of 23-25? If you’re so tired of all guys your age being more interested in partying and playing the field, why not try someone with a little more maturity? Don’t forget the average 30 year old man is more like 25 in girl years.

Also, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you said so much about your positive traits because you knew DCB would attack your looks and personality if you didn’t. However, just a little caution, it does come off as over-confident, particularly when presented in a “why don’t guys I want fall all over me” kind of way. But I’m sure you know that.

July 6, 2006

I told her all my lines!

reallyLost writes,

Great Site! I’m lost on how to talk to this girl that I’m friends with…A few months ago we were talking and I told her all of my “moves and lines” just in a fun conversation, since then I’ve found myself to be really into her, and have heard positive things from mutual friends about me and her. She doesn’t drink much if at all, and so when I do try to make a move on her, her response is always something about how she likes that move or how she thinks I should try it on another girl. I don’t think she gets that I’m into her because we still talk a lot as friends, and I keep hearing through the grapevine, how she thinks im really attractive and what not. How do I make a move on her, without having some long awkward, I like you conversation?

DCB says,

You idiot! You basically gave the enemy your war plans. Then again I don’t think it would have mattered much because you seem deeply entrenched in the friends zone. If she really liked you, I doubt she would provide an ongoing commentary of your moves. Instead, she would stay silent and let you take over.

If you do eventually gather up enough courage to face what I’m sure will be the rejection of the year, I say do something totally different from your normal playbook: go straight for the box.

Kathryn says,

Sweetie, are you 19 or 20? Because seriously, who relies so heavily on lines and games beyond college?

She clearly likes you, even though she’s heard about all the crap moves you’ve pulled, so what’s to fear? Are you scared of having to communicate with her? Are you afraid of being honest and being yourself? Why not ask her out on an actual date and, I dunno, go with how you feel in the moment without busting out any cheesy lines or moves? That would probably work better than you think.

As for her running commentary on and rebuttal of your “moves,” I think you’re still acting pretty cheesy and transparent. She likes you and doesn’t want to be played by you, so she points out these games to show you she’s not falling for it. I think this can be overcome with a little sincerity and effort.

July 5, 2006

Finding reasons not to bang

Confused writes,

I would really love a strong male perspective on this.

About two years ago, I met this guy at a house party (to avoid confusion, IŽll call him Adam). Smart, successful, cutest guy in the room…anyway, our eyes locked, we started talking, and we really hit it off. But naturally, to my disappointment, he had a girlfriend. Basically, instead of thinking “What a waste of time,” I decided to be positive about it and we ended up becoming friends.

What really cemented the friendship was the fact that his friend developed a crush on me that same night. But the friend went about the crush all wrong–basically started phoning my other friends to find out where I was and showing up unexpectedly–and he ultimately came on too strong and creeped me out. So it became a big joke between me and Adam.

Well, as it turns out, I ended up working with Adam’s girlfriend, and he and I began to see a lot of each other, but just as friends. I was dating around, and he was fun to talk to from time to time. He would actually set it up so that we could be alone and just watch funny movies and joke around, and I never felt weird around him…until one night, when he confessed his feelings for me, and we hooked up (everything short of sex).

Now, I thought, at the time, that he and his gf had already broken up. WRONG! They had been moving in that direction for some time, and sure enough, a couple weeks after our secret hook-up they ended things for good (she still doesn’t know what happened between us, to my knowledge). I still feel really bad about that, because I didnŽt know they were still together, but I guess that’s water under the bridge now.

Adam now lives in a different city because of his job, and we’ve been apart for a year because IŽm traveling. He really wants me to visit him when I get back (he said for a few weeks, or a month if I can). Basically, he wants to finish what we started. But I don’t want to waste time and money just to become some sort of long-distance booty call. And my cynical side just wonders if, since we did everything short of sex, that it made me a more appealing notch. But he’s been my friend for a couple years, and we have a LOT of mutual friends, so I donŽt know if he’d risk that.

Do you think his intent is purely sexual? He mentioned that he could deal with a long-distance relationship (that surprised me, because I don’t generally believe in the staying power of long-distance relationships, but it could just be a line). And I do value the friendship. Who knows, maybe it could evolve…

I also have a general question: Do relationships EVER evolve out of sex? Because, looking at some girls I know, even though we live in a “liberated” society, no one respects a ho. But if you don’t put out (say, by the 4th date, right DCB?) then the guy thinks youŽre not interested (or maybe sex was all he wanted in the first place). Insight?

Kathryn says,

All the time and effort and history involved lead me to believe sex is not the only thing on his mind. You guys had a great friendship, he developed romantic feelings for you, and acted on them in your one hot night together.

As for whether relationships can evolve out of sex… of course. I know plenty of people who had long-term relationships start with what could easily have been a one-night stand. It just depends on the people and the emotions and the situation. Likewise, I know people who waited quite a while to have sex, with no ill effects on their relationship. However, I must point out that anything you had with this guy at this point would not be evolving “out of sex.” There’s far too much background for that.

DCB says,

Whether he has feelings or not, he mostly wants to bang you. After you blue balled him that one night, he can’t stop thinking about how he wants to destroy you in bed.

You were blabbering on about how awesome he is but now you’re scared to bang? This is one of the reasons I hate women: they don’t go after what they want because they are scared about how they are perceived. Do you want it or not?

July 3, 2006

No thanks

Frasier writes,

I’ve passed up two opportunites at threesomes in the past year. Am I gay?

Kathryn says,

Oh gosh, no. You’re not gay.

Just a ridiculous LIAR.

DCB says,

I bet the girls involved were monsters.

I would have still done it.

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