First off just want to say that I love your blog and some of DCB’s responses crack me up.
Ok here is the situation. I am 27 and was in a serious relationship from 19 to 23 and moved to DC right after it was over. I am a relatively nice guy with a Midwest background with a stable job and I consider myself a good looking guy with a lot to offer. With this being said, I have noticed a weird trend developing in the past year or so. I have this uncanny ability to be able to start up conversations with women and will talk with them for hours where they will laugh, introduce me to their group, and receive casual touches and so forth. Now while I am getting a good vibe from the whole thing, she meanwhile is just getting this vibe that I am a friend. I have always been able to talk to women and usually didn’t have a problem “sealing the deal” and had a pretty high success rate. Now apparently I am just somehow putting out his “buddy” vibe. What am I doing wrong in between the introduction and last call? My friends think it is because I was basically raised by my mom and the fact that I have 3 sisters and no father or brother for a male influence. My female friends say it is because I am just too nice and that I am just so easy to talk to. Shouldn’t those things be a plus? What should I do differently? Is being easy to talk to and friendly really a deal breaker?
I am really curious about the male and female views on this situation.
So you want to avoid the friend zone and move to the end zone, eh? First, an analogy:
When I was younger and studied Eagle Claw Kung Fu (the most studly of all martial arts), I had a bad habit of not keeping my elbow down. I was gently warned about this many times, but kept forgetting. One day, during sparring, the teacher took my sparring partner’s place and when I threw a punch (without keeping my elbow down) he heel-kicked me in the ribs and sent me flying across the room headfirst into the weapon rack, where I split my head open. Why did Grandmaster Shum do that? It wasn’t because he was a sadist-that was just a coincidence. It was because there was a serious flaw in my technique that would be dangerous if not corrected.
Now…onto your serious flaw. You have become what my friend Dirty Dave calls “an emotional tampon.” When you’re playing softball and the outfielders come in closer, it’s not because they like you and want you to score, it’s because they have such disdain for your skill that they won’t treat you as a worthy adversary. Your puppy dogs and ice cream routine makes women want to hang around with you and be nice to you, but it doesn’t mean they want to sleep with you. They stick around to talk to you because they don’t find you sexually threatening. You’re safe…like a Justin Timberlake poster in a teen girl’s room. You want them to date you, not talk about shoes and how they can’t find jeans to fit them.
You need to get your edginess back. I’ll bet that most of your friends are women. Am I right? This just makes the problem worse. You need to re-connect with your primordial maleness so that women will see you as a stud again, not some one they can watch Will and Grace with. Try some testosterone-improving habits like working out, sports, or hunting. I work with drywall or install marble tile whenever my testosterone needs a boost (which is almost never, because I’m all man, baby). Hang around more of your guy friends and talk to women in bars with the sole intent of getting their phone numbers, not to be friendly for the sake of being friendly. It’s great that you can find and talk to random attractive women easily. Most people have the opposite problem. So use that to your advantage–nice guy is good, but asexual is not. And even if you are not getting the mojo vibe, ASK for the girl’s phone number. It will reinforce to your subconscious the purpose of your exercise, which is to get laid, not to engage in Sisyphean dialogue about the DC bar scene with girls who are going home with someone else. Even if you’re not “feeling it,” at least asking for the number will remind you next time to stay “on message” when talking to girls in bars.
Kathryn says,
Being friendly and easy to talk to are great qualities. I can’t imagine a person alive who’d say they would prefer their mate to be surly and dismissive. So don’t worry about that.
What I am curious about, though, (and I sense the DCB force strong within me here) is what has changed about you in the last year to keep you from sealing the deal? Have you gained weight? Suddenly started dressing in hushpuppies, sweater vests, and pleated khakis? Started losing your hair? Because if you truly haven’t changed your game, and you’re still in the same town meeting the same kinds of people with whom you were previously successful… I’m kind of stumped. When you were fresh out of your relationship, were you more about the score, caring less about the women, and now that you’re healed and have distance from it, are you looking more for a real relationship, and it totally shows? Do you act like a wimp?
Something else must have changed. Find it and fix it. See if your female friends will help make you over, or give you tips on how to come across as less of a platonic friend, and more of a hot catch.
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I used to have this problem at times - getting lots of girls to think you are a great guy but generating no attraction. Some thoughts:
1. Maximize your looks by working out and dressing fashionably.
2. Learn to generate sexual tension in your conversations. Don’t just have a nice polite conversation, create some sparks by throwing in some playful teasing.
3. Learn to physically escalate at the first sign she seems ready. This lets her know you are sexual and man enough to do something about it.
4. Be more alpha overall: Display confidence. Be dominant. Be the man who sets the agenda. No, don’t be an a-hole, just be a leader.
Comment by Chaco on 09/20/06.
Chaco — perfect comments. Too bad you’re engaged!
Comment by OC on 09/20/06.
Back in school (K-12) you knew people who just begged to be smacked. All they had to do was walk up and say “hi” and something in you wanted to punch that guy. Nice guy, friendly, maybe a little nerdy, but something about him just said “Please, sir, I’d like a wedgie.” The Simpsons had an episode about that and said it was some pheremone that triggered a bully instinct. Luckily, most kids like that manage to outgrow it and become decent people that you don’t mind hanging out with.
Similarly, there’s an undefined trait that causes women to flock to a guy for companionship but not for sex. You’re the “perfect guy” in all respects. You hit every checkmark in their mental list of what they want in a guy but still they don’t want to date you. Kathryn said it best awhile back when she defined the “want to see your penis” factor. It’s the check point that most women don’t admit is on their list because the statement is too uncouth.
The symptoms are pretty much as you’ve described. The women not only won’t date you they can’t think of anyone they’d consider trying to set you up with.
The most honest answer that you’re likely to get is the “you’re too nice” one. As much as women say that’s what they want they always go home with the guy everyone but them realizes is a jerk. The women come to this conclusion on their own many months later. While dating the jerk they talk about what a wonderful person you are and how they’d go out with you if only they were single. Months later, when they finally realize what everyone else already knew, they dump the jerk and go find a new jerk leaving you wondering what the fuck just happened.
Solutions… uhhhh… whew…
1) Start dating someone. Once you’re dating someone you’ll have swarms of interested women. This is a catch 22, however. Like saying “go to our website if you can’t access the internet.” Getting one of the women to serve as a dummy date is often suggested, but I don’t know anyone who has tried it.
2) Lose the nice guy bit. Get them drunk and take them home. I know, I know, if you were the sort of guy willing to do that you wouldn’t be in this situation. You’d be a jerk and irresistable to the ladies.
3) Find a woman who is scared of sex. Someone who needs a nice sexually non-threatening male who is willing to go slow over a month or two until she’s ready. Finding a 27 year old virgin (or near virgin) is your problem.
4) Some will say you need to make more physical contact. In my experience it just gets you the “let’s just be friends” talk sooner, but give it a shot. Perhaps cologne, too. If they can associate your smell with good times with other guys they may think of you in a more sexual fashion.
5) I haven’t tried this, but I’ve heard people recommend getting them to talk about good times in their past. Times when they were falling in love with other guys and the nice stuff they did for them. But not the bad times. Steer the conversation away from breakups and cheating. The idea is that if you can’t inspire those romantic feelings yourself then you can use the feelings generated by happy memories to do it for you.
I usually go along with Ibid’s advice, but dude, don’t tell the guy to do #5. That’s what women do with each other. They’ll just see him as one of the girls. When a guy gets me to talk about feelings, especially at a bar, especially the first time we meet, and even if they’re good feelings, I’m not going home with him. He’s instantly in the friend-zone.
Is the guy being too available? I’m still trying to figure out what made me go home with “that guy” back in July. He wasn’t the hottest or the tallest or the funniest. I think it’s because he was less all over me than his friends, but still friendly, just not too friendly — he was calm and confident, and I dig that. He sort of wanted to know about me, but he also was happy to just shoot the shit.
I find that when a guy wants to know all about me when we first meet, I’m less into him. Likewise, when he spends all his time talking about who he is and what he does, I’m out (categorically, especially when a guy starts dropping pedigrees, I think “wow, asshole– you assume I’m in awe, but you also assume that I don’t come from the same place/school/career”).
We can wait until the first date (or morning after, whatever) to talk about ourselves. If you want my number at a bar, come up to me, and make small talk. (Dropping flirty sexual innuendos a la Chaco’s #2 recommendation is OK but risky, especially if your timing is off and it makes you look slimy. Depends on how witty you are.) If we end up talking politics or sports or whatever, fine. Just keep it light and make me want to know more about you. But don’t ask or talk about anything too personal, or I’ll either think you’re understimulating (if you’re asking all about me) or self-absorbed (if you’re talking all about you).
The poster sounds like a total catch– best of luck to him.
Comment by No! Not #5! on 09/20/06.
After reading HIN’s response, it is my duty to you readers to return asap.
Comment by DCB on 09/20/06.
OC, you seem to have a keen eye for talent.
Comment by Chaco on 09/20/06.
No Not #5 why would you fuck a guy you barely know, ever hear of STD’s?
Comment by Jack on 09/20/06.
Ok, I’m a girl and I can’t figure out why on earth a woman would talk for a significant amount of time to a guy at a bar who she didn’t know unless she was physically interested in him. In the grocery line, at a conference or other gathering where you don’t know anyone, sure, but in a bar? Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows people don’t go to a bar to make friends.
Comment by flippantangel on 09/20/06.
Flippantangel, The Friend is sending out the ‘cool, let’s be friends’ vibe.
It’s confusing the women because he’s always gone the let’s be friends route then hook up. When you’re younger that happens like in college. However as one gets older in the mid-20’s the game changes significantly and both men and women start to follow more traditional roles in dating.
However, The Friend is still acting like he’s a freshman, being friends with a chick while trying to get into bed with her.
Women want to follow the basic script as they get older. If they like you, they want to follow the standard dialogue and don’t want you to stray outside the lines, ie close the deal within a certain time frame.
Comment by Lion on 09/21/06.
I’m the guy who posted this question. I originally posted this question about 3 weeks ago and since then I have come to a conclusion to the dilemma that I was in. First before I get to what I discovered, I want to say thanks for the advice. Some of you were right on the money while others were well intentioned but way off the mark which is my fault because I didn’t explain my situation well enough. My problem was looking at my friends who are “players” and I mentally decided I didn’t want that anymore. I am getting to that age where I want to settle down and actually have a meaningful relationship. My problem was my reason of thinking. I associated my previous game with the “player” mentality and so when I tried to be the nice guy and not be so about me and what I want, that I was actually coming across as the wimpy “friend” “nice guy” and so I was hurting myself because I could talk to a woman I was interested and then when I used the “nice guy” routine, I was really hurting myself. I still feel I need to tweak my game a little and use a little bit of the sensitive part mixed in with being more assertive and hopefully get to what I ultimately want which is the number of that beautiful woman that has been laughing at my jokes and casually touching my shoulder all night.
Comment by "gift of gab guy" on 09/21/06.
If you’re really serious about being in a meaningful relationship then you don’t need to tone down your player skills, you need to change how you *choose* women. Simply put be more selective. Women love that because they know you’re looking for quality, not quantity. Also, they can spot a man who has made that change a mile away, so you don’t need to do anything extra.
Comment by Lion on 09/21/06.
Jack, darling. It’s not very nice to go assuming things about the bedroom activities and infectious disease knowledge of women you don’t know.
Comment by No! Not #5! on 09/21/06.
No Not #5 - Point taken. I hope he wrapped it
Comment by Jack on 09/21/06.
Anti premarin ads….
Premarin with no prescription. Premarin hormone replacement….
